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The Ultimate Flaw

 

 

CEVO, DotA Pride Tournament, ESL, Farm 4 Fame, Pick-League.  Five different leagues running simultaneously, with many teams playing in two or three of them.  This has been a common trend for DotA (and other eSports) for a long time.  Even with the current state of the global economy, there is no lack of leagues and tournaments able to provide competition and prizes.  We should all be happy to be so fortunate.

But is this really what's best for DotA?  We've all pretty much taken the current league system for granted.  An individual organization decides to host a DotA competition, makes their own rules, invites however many teams they want, allows whatever rosters they so choose, and (hopefully) hand out prizes to the winners.


So what is DotA's biggest flaw?  Well, it's that everyone always rage-quits because I never miss an arrow (zing zing zing!).  But what is competitive DotA's biggest flaw?  The instability of teams.  We've all seen the common scenario.  A group of skilled players get together, have high hopes, do pretty well in a few leagues, then call it quits when they hit a rough patch.  The competitive community has been plagued by this Ultimate Flaw of team-hopping and disbanding for years.

There have always been groups of eSports advocates, fighting to close the gap between our professional gaming style and "real" sports leagues such as the NFL or NBA.  Let's take the NFL (National [American] Football League, for all you Euros who mustered up the courage to venture over to our overly-biased American site), for example.  The NFL currently has 32 teams, most of which have been around for a very long time.  More importantly, each one of these teams is an organization, owned by an individual or two (except for the Green Bay Packers, who are publicly owned - Go Pack Go!), and intend to continue competing in the NFL for years to come, making them franchises.

If (a very wealthy) individual wants to create a new franchise and enter it into the league, the NFL's "big-ol-decision-making board", including prominent league individuals and representatives from each current franchise, have the right to allow the new contender, or to say "gtfo nub".  As you can probably imagine, this is not a common situation, since it would take a great deal of time and money to create a brand new NFL franchise.  Thus, the league has had 32 teams for a few years now, and will probably remain at 32 teams for quite a while.

Oh, sup stability?  I didn't see you come in.

The NFL has 32 franchises.  The Chicago Bears are a very mediocre team.  A field goal is worth 3 points.  We can all assume that these aspects of the NFL won't change any time soon.  So what's the driving factor behind the NFL's stability?

1.  Popularity - Football is the most watched sport in the country.  There are thousands of people who would love to play in the NFL.  There are even more people who love watching it.

2.  Money - "Mo' Money Mo' Problems", right?  Well, not really.  Money keeps the NFL alive.  Do you think Chad Johnson would have legally changed his last name to Ochocinco if he wasn't making $6 million per year?  Would he even be playing if he didn't receive a salary?  Those obscene salaries are a product of the NFL's money flow, which is continuously generated through media and endorsements.  Keep them bills flowin', nahmean?

Okay, so what the shit does the NFL have to do with us?

NFL players only have one thing to worry about:  the NFL.  They go to practice during the week, they play their games every weekend, and they burn their money in the off-season.

Obviously we don't have the same ancient foundation that a league like the NFL does.  We don't have the same level of popularity.  Everyone in America knows what Football is.  DotA?  Of course not.  We clearly don't have the financial standing of the NFL, either.  Our competitive scene consists of mainly high school and college-age people.  Until Merlini is 10 years out of medical school, we can't expect any loaded DotA players for a while.

We also lack a focus.  A standard.  An official governing body.  GosuGamers does its damned best, but it's nearly impossible to maintain an official ranking system when multiple leagues have to be taken into account.  That's not the only obstacle, though.  The #1 ranked team on the GosuGamers World Rankings is "MYM".  That same MYM was previously called Ravens, and has not had the same roster the whole time spent achieving that #1 ranking.  In fact, three of the players are from the former MYM, who changed their name to Kingdom shortly before disbanding.  They sit at #6 on the rankings.

Isn't there something wrong with that?  The #6 spot is dead.  The team no longer exists, but three of the players responsible for that ranking also get to claim the #1 spot.  The Ultimate Flaw presents itself once again.

In the NFL, the franchise is responsible for all records, not the players.  Sure, Brett Favre's football card will list all of his years with the Packers, and he'll always have his Super Bowl ring, but that Lombardi Trophy remains with the Packers.  So do their trophies from Superbowl 1 and 2, despite the fact that no players from back then currently play on the team.

Another occurrence of  "Roster vs. Team" recently appeared when pZ Gaming replaced former Blight Gaming to become Blight Gaming.  The Blight organization's old Swedish roster went inactive and they replaced it with the North American roster.  Blight's Farm4Fame tournament spot was given to Blight, even though it is almost a completely different roster.  As happy as I am for the pZ guys, is this fair?  These kind of roster swaps have never been consistent throughout leagues.  Some leagues would allow this change, while some would kick them out of the league entirely.


"Everything from the players' way of behaving both concerning games, comments and getting matches played to organisations screwing over their teams to tournament holders not paying out prizes. Everyone are to blame and I doubt it'll ever change cause E-Sports is played by, followed by and most importantly ran by anonymous teenagers."   -- Jacob 'Maelk' Toft-Andersen


Clearly these problems are not just in my imagination.  Pieces of the Ultimate Flaw have been discussed many times before by other players and community members.  This wonderful game we call DotA simply cannot progress any farther without some serious changes.

Holy Smoke

When I started writing this article, Ohh Baby seemed like a promising, stable North American team, looking at a potential Pandemic sponsorship.  Now they no longer exist.

Exactly one month ago I started typing up these ideas, not sure where I was going, hoping that I would come to some sort of a conclusion along the way.  These ideas are not concrete.  The NFL metaphor is not concrete.  I now realize that I cannot complete this article by myself.  My thoughts are not organized and no rational conclusion has come to my mind - this is where our community steps in.  You guys know I fucking love this game, and I want to continue making progress with the competitive scene, but I'm stuck.  What's our next step?  What do we need?  Universal match rules?  A governing body for rankings?  Less leagues?  One league?

We could step out of CEVO, DotA Pride, Farm4Fame, and ESL.  We could create one league.  We could create franchises.  We could have franchise owners.  One person responsible for the well being of the franchise.  All franchise titles would live on, and a new owner would have to be appointed to replace an old one.  We could make all of this legit, with no-competition contracts and everything.  Easy rankings, easy season titles - everything would be so simple.

But is this what we want?  This would mean alienating eSports.  DotA would have its own private corner of the Internet, with its own league, its own league and franchise sponsors, etc., while all other eSports keep on running as they have been.  Would this destroy the possibility of multi-gaming organization sponsorships?  Would EG, MYM, and fnatic still have an interest in DotA?

We all know that something is wrong with the current system.  There is progress to be made, for the top players, the up-and-coming competitive players, and for the observers.

So how do we fix the Ultimate Flaw?  I took the time to type up my thoughts.  If you took the time to read it, do your part and contribute your own thoughts.  Comment below.

Comments

avatar GranDGranT@gmail.com
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Ohh baby had nobody on their team, how did they look stable?

Sigh Daft statements.
avatar Spit-wad
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A 3rd place finish in CEVO-P and word of a Pandemic sponsorship warrants the "stable" tag imo.
avatar Cubs
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Bears are just bad do not need to beat around the bush with the mediocre bs. Meh is MLG still around? They kind of have this franchise idea and I believe Complexity is apart of MLG and still sponsors other games so I do not really see that being a problem.
avatar Cubs
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Oh another idea...Amateur and pro ranking. Pro rankings just take in account F4F ESL Lans and Finals of tourneys amateur everything else
avatar good.times
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Well I wrote a long reply but it didn't submit.

The basic point was that you don't need a central league to have the franchises you want. Compare S. Korean Starcraft. They have franchises (stable sponsored teams), but the players and teams operate in a number of leagues and events at the same time. The rankings are done by KeSPA, who keep track of all the wins and losses for players and teams alike. KeSPA is big business, though. More manageable would be something like the TeamLiquid ELO rankings.

The teams may or may not be any more stable -- I don't see how leagues have anything to do with that -- but if you keep track of individual AND team ELO then you'd have a base for when a new team forms with old players. If you want the franchise angle then keep the old ELO when a team changes rosters drastically and let them try and maintain it (or, if that would create too much of a boost in places -- new team beats established team with high ELO and gets a massive bump -- then come up with some way to average the new players ELO in).
avatar BurntouT
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The only ranking that I could think of would be player based. Each player is awarded points for each win they receive, and team totals are added up for top-ten rankings. Though, this would be a lot of work. =/
avatar frequency
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Finally, an article that actually makes good points and suggestions (although I'm not quite a fan of the latter).

No matter where the team is from, the instability of their players and organisations is such a strong downfall for DotA that I really doubt it will ever be seen in the same light as Starcraft or even Warcraft III or CS.

Your proposed remedies to these problems however, I cannot agree with. It sounds far, FAR too much like what the CGS did - and well, a two year spend-a-fuckloa d-of-money-for- no-real-gain for DotA won't do much apart from create even bigger egos.

As for how to fix it, I think the entire DotA community has to change mindsets - and when that happens (which sadly I doubt will happen) things should start looking brighter.
avatar Spit-wad
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How do we go about changing the mindset of the entire community?
avatar iHaTeIsAaC
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Get ADULTS involved in the process
avatar glocks4sale
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I think that if the GosuGamers rankings were updated and kept a bit more up-to-date and accurate that would be valuable resource... especially now that they've started covering more American matches...
avatar Mandurang
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Very nice article, Aaron. I believe that instability is an issue, as you point out. I do not believe it's quite the Ultimate Flaw, however, even though I quite agree that there is, in fact, one that prevents Dota from being "taken seriously", shall we say. I think the situation in Dota is a little different than other e-sports, so I'll focus on it for a quick thought.

We have been playing this game for so long a time now that it's quite easy to forget what it is to someone who isn't a dedicated player. I saw this first hand a while ago when introducing the map to a friend of mine, and after a few games he said he didn't want to spend so much time getting into something that is, in the end, only a custom map among hundreds. No, I said it's so far beyond other custom maps it's not even funny. Well, that's true, but it's not apparent to others. Namely, sponsors who want to invest in a game. They need to know that it's a game that is in it for the long haul, like the big names - CS, FIFA, WC3. One custom map that is developed solely by one individual and a few others who support him just doesn't cut it. I love IceFrog and I'm all behind him, but what if he wakes up one day and decides he actually needs to work for a living? What if he has a gigantic hard drive failure and loses all his Dota files? What if...you get it (God forbid all this). Companies need to know that a game is not there one day, gone the next, so the "big" bucks can come in (big as in bigger). Until that time, we'll have tournaments that are local or just not big enough, valiant though the effort is. It all hinges on stability, like you say, but a major component is stability of the game itself.

Of course, you may argue that even if it actually were a normal game, like HoN or Dota 2.0 will be, it'll still be as good as the other e-Sports, which sometimes isn't good enough either. Well, that's a whole different issue.

TL;DR - Stability of the game itself is as important as stability of the teams/players/etc.
avatar Kapz
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imo no match other than top 16 teams in a tournament should be recorded for gosugamers ranking or w/e league it is.

if in any time a team in the rankings changes 40 percent of their team roster they should start back at the bottom.

possible 2 ranking system professional teams and non professional. ie the top teams that accepted (criteria unknown) 20 teams ie
MYM, Fnatic, EG, Blight, Pokeridols, dmz, mcity, planet-x, tribal, enro, nfinity, aeon.ru, DTS, DIPS, Teg, Rox.Kis, os|one + 3. When a match goes up for these teams as in they face off in a top 16 match in a tournament then u can update the rankings no one cares that one of these teams beats a pub team and it shoudlnt be updated in rankings. if in the top 16 of a tournament has a new team they can be added to the list if they can win their match against one of the widely accepted teams. And hence start their rankings start and the losing team loses ranking for it.

currently for beating

the non professional ranking can include up and coming teams who would be required to submit matches on their own. there is no way you will get osmeone to go and chase all pub teams down so have them come to u like gosugamers does. if they want to be recognized and shown as a up and coming team they will post their replays.
avatar Kapz
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if someone were to do back date this to a logical point, probably do :

dota pride top 16,
cevo playoff matches of eg vs blight all 3 games,
dota club
asus autumn
farm4fame 2.1 and 2.2

cant really think of any other tournaments or leagues. im not all that familiar with asian dota so idk.
avatar Heksen
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What you are missing is the publics acceptance of esports and games. In korea games and such are widely accepted by so many people i cant even count.
Also imo the main thing here is, who plays the game, mainly teenagers who have their studies to think about since gaming doesnt provide a future.

Changing things like the rankings on gosugamers doesnt change much. a person who doesnt know anything about dota wont know anything more by checking the gosu rankings. Things like media need to improve and evolve into what the NFL gets. ofc i mean that in the really really long run :) but we need to start somewhere.
Streaming imo is a big part of this. Shoutcasting and commenting on the game helps a great deal.
Is there a website where you can watch games in really good quality, live possibly ? And i dont mean just dota.

I think you are thinking too much inside the box although your ideas are almost spot on.
avatar Akiri
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This is what TGBF is building to be, and I have turned it from a multi-gaming website to focusing the attention to DotA. Still a WIP, but ya.
avatar Heksen
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btw i watched eg vs blight game 1 & 2 and had your commentary on while watching and honestly it made the replay much more fun, little tricky to find out exactly where i was in the replay and where u were.
And although you sounded tired or bored sometimes during it it was the most fun i had had watching a replay in a long time.
More of these commentaries and we are on the road to a better community.
avatar Akiri
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I talked for about 3 hours straight, I'm sorry I can be super pumped for that long, I'll do my best to be able to perform longer sets that most actors/comedians/musicians/game commentators.
=D
avatar Heksen
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No need to be so defensive m8.
What i meant was that your shoutcast was quite entertaining dispite you being tired.
More of your shoutcasts plx!
DotA needs more of those.
avatar baird
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akiri you should just shoutcast the GGTV stream. the last stream's quality was rlly bad. the sound was fine but all the pixels were splotchy. but that would mean less people actually listening to the shoutcast
avatar Akiri
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Just been running into conflicts between the platforms we are using at the moment, will be fixed. Tried explaining this before, and during the stream, it was pretty obvious it was out of my control, sometimes shit just doesn't work.
avatar Zeb.
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Great article. Gaming teams have always been extremely unstable especially DOTA teams. I think this is because DOTA players strive to be the best and, given a group of players of close skill level, every individual in that group will think they are the best. This creates discourse when the team encounters problems, the end result being that group or team disbanding.

To create a team that survives, you need to create an online community of people that get along on a personal level rather than just a group that plays DOTA together. You also have to keep the community continuously active otherwise, it will cease to exist. If a team is made up of friends first and teammates second, it is much more likely to be able to work out its difficulties.
avatar Kapz
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the word team implys respect for your teammates and trust in their abilities. if you cant do that you will not be a stable successful team. and inorder to trust your teammates you need to believe they can play at the level your trying to play at and believe they will make the right play, if you can do that you will respect and trust them if not you will get disgruntled members etc. and every1 wants glory and fame for being the number 1 guy so teams break up since no one wants to accept a lesser role as you go further up the chain. but if u look at some the support players on the top 3 american teams pokeridols eg and blight, myself fanat1c, zaku samurai juice demon merc swiss have all in the past at some point or another played carry roles but now we accept the support roles and play what ever is neccessary to win the game for the team. and it takes people along time to get that aspect of team before me attitude. especially teenagers. eveyr1 on that list is at least a 19-25. the nature of gaming kinda dictates teams breaking up and forming.
avatar slice
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The ultimate flaw is that dota will not become what you so want it to be until Icefrog + Valve team up and get their game done. So don't expect the "ultimate change" until then.

Despite Dota's popularity, it will always be a step behind in raking in money, and therefore be a step behind in maintaining successful teams. When Valve releases a dota, the money will come, the dota community will grow, and teams will have that "motive" ($$) to stay stable and improve, and most of all win. (again, win that $$).

You can hypothesize as much as you want, but the average american team you are talking about does not have the necessary odds of "time spent practicing" vs "money gained" to stay motivated enough to work through problems. Thus, they break up and form a new team because they still have the same goddamn chances of taking the meager prize pots that there are.
avatar baird
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by the team that the new valve version comes out, in a perfect universe, 5-s would still be a virgin? finith would still be a pot head? moon would be a DOCTOR?
avatar baird
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time*
avatar slice
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And as for european / asian teams, they DO stay more stable, because --- guess what, they have more popularity and money over there!

No matter what we predict and postulate about the current state of things -- I guarantee you if this game had more money involved things would be different. IF, and this is a big IF, Valve's "dota" becomes as popular, or nearly as popular, as lets say "halo" or something like that, then you can bet teams will be stable. Mark my words, and read this post again in 2015.

AFK my work is done. Don't do drugs.
avatar Mandurang
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Yeah, that is obvious enough. After all, what you say holds true for most things. If we had enough resources, we would abolish hunger, build mining colonies on Mars, make sure there was no poverty and the world would be a better place. The real question is, what does Dota lack in order to get investment capital, which is what Spit-wad is trying to get at, I think.
avatar Heksen
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Please tell me your are kidding about the resources and abolishing hunger.
This is really off topic but please try and read up on the distrobution of resource on this cozy little planet called earth.
avatar Mandurang
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What I meant to say if you missed it is that pointing out that money is the solution is quite obvious. That the dota scene needs money to expand goes without saying. The real question is how to find it.
avatar baird
0
 
 
mars' magnetic field is too low for humans to live there. too much UV light. too thin of an atmosphere for water to be retained in liquid form before it evaporates into the atmosphere.
avatar Akiri
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slice so serious?
avatar gg2u.KiDDo
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nice 1 sam, the smartest thing i've heard all day. imo have a massive tournament from every Continent, one division, not invitational only. Like, a North American DotA Cup, Asia DotA Cup, European DotA Cup, and have the teams that placed like top 6 in these cups play in the International DotA Cup! therefore it'd be separated from having the lag/delay issue, and before i think any of this change can happen i think DotA needs it's own platform, on steam. once that happens i do believe the community can and will flourish furthermore.
avatar Akiri
0
 
 
Razer has ADC/EDC, just not an NADC.
avatar Mikey
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Basically what a lot of people said, however Kapz hit it right on. If players on a team don't respect each other, do shady business, and/or secretly think they're better then everybody else on the team, the team can't go anywhere.
avatar Risk_Player
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Thats pretty much the most important point
avatar Aj1
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Too much ego imo...no one wants to admit when they are wrong/failed
avatar Quest
0
 
 
The Ultimate Flaw: Desrow
avatar slice
0
 
 
Considering spit said "there is no lack of leagues and tournaments able to provide competition and prizes. We should all be happy to be so fortunate" i DON'T think he was talking about a lack of money. Maybe I missed something?
avatar Spit-wad
0
 
 
For the most part, yes. It's ridiculous to offer large cash prizes for online events unless there are some heavy duty anti-hack and anti-ringer solutions. A couple hundred dollars is plenty to motivate people to want to win, but hopefully not enough to make people want to win that bad.

Sponsors want to support stability. Teams are motivated by sponsors. We're in a vicious cycle between stability/professionalism and sponsors, and I don't think we can expect any major financial backing until we make a change ourselves. However, I don't expect to simply "change the mindset" of the entire community, thus I think that some sort of governing body could be beneficial. I'm not saying I think the 1 league idea is the best way to go, but I wanted to throw it out there as a possibility.
avatar BurntouT
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Make an ultra dota council of elected members! 9 or 11. An odd number so that there are no ties.
avatar Akiri
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What about 311?
avatar Zigrakil
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Not elected members to start, if you ask me. Take maybe 3 universally agreed upon founders (Spit and two carefully chosen, intelligent others) and have people submit applications to these people. It is extremely important that this governing body not be created by popularity contest. The founders would need to be totally impartial and evaluate members based on their actual skills (organizational ability, intellect, managerial insight etc.) rather than how funny they are or, dare I say it, how good at DotA they may be. A governing body need not be comprised of professional DotA players. This is what kills leagues right now. Leagues should be run by people who run those leagues for the primary reason that they themselves can play in that league.
avatar Legato
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Agreed on all counts. DotA suffers from the same problem as big law firms: dota players (like lawyers) think that because they're good at dota they are also good at managing, business, organization etc. which simply isn't true. Law firms manage to plod along but dota doesn't have that luxury--it's important, if we do establish such a body, to make sure that capable individuals are favored over popular ones.
avatar Zigrakil
0
 
 
Also, this body would need to be in contact with Icefrog. It would need to serve as an organizer that actually did stuff. None of this nonsense about players rescheduling matches 10 times over because they don't feel like playing. Don't have 5 at the time you agreed to? Automatic DQ unless you have a damn good reason. If you want to have professionalism, you can't allow for amateur incidents.
avatar ScRuFfYzZz
0
 
 
http://gamebattles.com/

If only this worked out the first time around, maybe we could go for a second round?
avatar Spit-wad
0
 
 
Gamebattles didn't work because of the lack of hype and an unenthusiastic administration. As cocky as it may sound, I think CEVO-P went very well this season because (a) we did weekly predictions with a lot of shoutcasts for hype and (b) I was an asshole to the teams and forced them to squeeze games in to stay on schedule, which imo was definitely worthwhile - teams needed to be threatened for the sake of keeping things rolling and increasing our level of professionalism.

Gamebattles could be a nice addition to DotA, but I don't think it will change much - it's just adding another league. It could definitely draw in more sponsor interest - MLG and CEVO are the two biggest North American professional eSports leagues, but as far as how we (the DotA community) handle our business... I just don't think it would help at all.
avatar Daeg
0
 
 
Let's take the NFL (National [American] Football League, for all you Euros who mustered up the courage to venture over to our overly-biased American site)
avatar Daeg
0
 
 
thanks for the shoutout =)
avatar Spit-wad
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Anything for you daegypoo
avatar Beast_Pete
0
 
 
Akiri: "Razer has ADC/EDC, just not an NADC. "

And I plan to get an NADC organized next year. I already had this plan last year, but Razer's budget for sponsorship was so low because of the economic crisis, that we couldn't get it going for early 2009 (which was the original plan). I'm already glad that EDC is happening and with so many prizes. I hope that next year an NADC will be possible too, I am already building up an admin team for that.

NFL's role is something we can't follow in WC3: DotA. There isn't much money involved in Competitive DotA compared to these big sports. In a DotA 2 it might be possible, but until then... we should find other possible solutions.

With the idea of WDC I want to introduce a role model similar to professional boxing. We will have an objective rankings list that counts only pure facts: wins and losses. This way we can assure that tournament organizers have a valid source to determine the top teams when they wish to invite the best of a continent for example. Also with the WDC title, and hopefully with rather high prize money involved, we could make sure teams are taking it more seriously. This will be a hard work of course, but it's worth spending time on!
avatar Colmo
0
 
 
Really great article.
avatar Colmo
0
 
 
And as for european / asian teams, they DO stay more stable, because --- guess what, they have more popularity and money over there!

Quote:

No matter what we predict and postulate about the current state of things -- I guarantee you if this game had more money involved things would be different. IF, and this is a big IF, Valve's "dota" becomes as popular, or nearly as popular, as lets say "halo" or something like that, then you can bet teams will be stable. Mark my words, and read this post again in 2015.

AFK my work is done. Don't do drugs.


Slice is right except 2015 is after 2012 so we will all be dead =/
avatar Heldarion
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I like the idea proposed by the article very much. In general I think that the organization of NHL (the only North American thingy I follow more closely - but I guess it is very similar in its structure to NBA and NFL) is the best to run a professional sport.
However, if you want to have European and American teams in the same league, there's still a long way to go, since delay problems are far from solved despite the existence of allegedly super-good hostbots.
To make life easier for everyone it could be agreed to have top 4 teams of EU and US (slots decided by the top 4 of the last NHL-like season in each US/NA and EU) meet on a LAN and fight for some sort of intercontinenta l championship.
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Last Updated ( Saturday, 03 April 2010 19:56 )  

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