to any high master / grandmaster protoss:

[sola]

hi

http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=54148427&f=214

the thread link above is nothing you have to read, but its a small session of theorycraft basically between minigun and myself

basically the dilemma i have is the following:

as a fast expanding terran, i seldom come across the 4/5/6 warpgate timing push. 4/5 if it wants to hit fast and pressure or kill, 6 if it is more all in than the previous two.

this build i find is extremely difficult to scout - often begins with a 3 gate contain (like most protoss expand builds because protoss can simply do that)

i have a trouble holding vs this gateway aggression that usually hits between 9-10 minute mark, and i am trying to find out the best techlab-expansion solution out of it.

so far, the tosses i've spoken to who do this, and some other people like x6maker, pretty much told me that this is almost unstoppable and is a direct counter build to the techlab expand - marauder or reaper.

however, i feel that terrans need one of these units, as playing completely in the dark vs protoss, which is often what happens, can be pretty disastrous sometimes. while most protosses opt for standard play and sit back for colossi tech or whatever other path they choose, there are protosses like MC who mix up their play, and its really difficult to adapt to blindly. feeling pressure to put up turrets at my front along with 5 bunkers blindly really sets me back both in game and mentally. watching out for voidray cheese, dt cheese, and gateway all ins are difficult due to the nature of being able to scout these things - scans often pick up a few gateways, that's often about it. which is why i really like the early reaper which can avoid the initial stalker scout, or the early shell/marauder expand, which completely denies the stalker scout for a little while.

i dont want to make this too long, so i want to simply ask : do you feel there are viable / practical defenses to 4-5-6 warpgate timing pushes for a terran expanding with techlab? or do i have to open with mass marines & bunkers or get tanks early to feel completely safe?

any opinions / feedback is appreciated, thanks

[S2]

3 bunkers deflect any gateway pressure and doesn't set you that far behind. 3 bunkers will get you auto wins vs a 6 gate protoss and there's no real reason why you don't put up 3 bunkers, especially when you expand faster than the P. Once you get a good scan on what they're doing you can salvage the bunkers and take a third if they aren't going 5+ gateways.

[mikey]

lets also not forget fast medivac or tank completely shuts down 3 gate pressure/contain.. maybe don't sit on 2-3 barracks for so long in the future

i'm not trying to argue that protoss vs terran is fair (although recent results show otherwise) just saying u shouldn't be suffering so much from contains. and if you lose to a 3gate contain you are doing something wrong.

[sola]

anyone else, im aware of what medivacs and tanks can do, if u also didnt know u cant tech to medivacs before 10 minutes unless u go 2 rax only, which would mean the 5 gate will kill u 100% because ur army supply is too low and 2 medivacs dont become the deciding factor in a battle of marines and bunkers vs 20 gateway units

3 bunkers dont hold. not vs 6+ sentries, especially not on a large open natural map like xel naga or metalopolis. i've tested too many times, and once again ive spoken to too many players, i am looking for alternatives beyond 5 bunkers or siege tanks - specifically being able to get a techlab on my rax.

in regards to the post scan -

5 gateways is a standard for 2 base protoss, even with robo, which is what makes the scouting so difficult

if i scan 5 gateways im assuming a standard game, though id normally expect 3 gate into robo - just cant odd out the fact that i missed the robo, i guess that is rather unlikely.

i dont expand faster than the protoss, and a lot of players die to 3 gate pressure

it happens in the GSL all the time - its not necessarily a build that requires flawless execution, u use guardian shield if running up ramp, and u use force fields to make bunker almost useless (hp drops in no time with no scv support)

theoretically, a protoss can continuously make units without skipping a cycle while expanding, and kill you if ur teching to medivacs. only, they dont do that, people usually run back around 8-9 min mark because they feel drops are coming.

[carebear33]

just get thors

[sola]

looking for a techlab expansion build to pull this off, nothing else

i know thors are a good allround counter to everything until colossi

i could do blind thors, but it doesnt suit my play - i dont like a clicking with 1 army, i like kiting with bio and stuff, once again i switched out of protoss...

limit responses to techlab expand exclusively please, thats what im here to figure out, thats what i like best and im trying to make it work that's all

[asrmatt]

i dunno shit about sc2 but i would like to commend u to wanting to play how you want to play and not necessarily conforming to everyone elses playstyle!!!

[S2]

3 bunkers hold anything

[MiGGy]

if you are having trouble with that do the 3-4 bunkers set up 1-2 tanks and then do some harrass drops

[BuLba-SaUr]

clair why r u looking for solutions here when ur better than every1 on these forums. post on teamliquid strategy lmao

[Papa KFC]

3 bunkers hold anything

tell that to rainbow.


3 gate contain builds are pretty brutal - fast medivac and tank builds are the counter. To hold a 5/6 gate timing attack you are ether going to need about 4/5 bunkers if you are going bio. However, 5/6 gate is much easier to hold with the korean 1-1-1 expand. You'll need about 3 bunkers in addition to well placed tanks with seige mode. If you know 5/6 gate is coming and you opted for the korean 1-1-1 expand, save a little gas and pump out a cloak banshee to counter asap.


That being said, your other alternative is to simply base trade the protoss with a medivac drop etc. (i.e. select vs. tt1 on meta) Realize though, that 6 gate will crush pretty much any bio build that takes a fast 3rd, doesn't put up more than 4 bunkers, or has units that get caught out of position.

[sola]

as kfc covered

btw cloaked banshees - i wonder if they are the true answer to this

i mentioned this in my other posts in the other forums, so ill put it here

when terran goes cloaked banshee, that's an extreme load of tech (it takes about as long to make 1 banshee with cloak as it takes to rush colossi) that terran invests in.

if anyone watched the NASL stream last night, socke vs painuser, yeah the cloaked banshee seldom catches the protoss player off guard

qxc vs adelscrub demonstrated the same thing, where the protoss didn't know how to react and lost ~20 probes.

but 20 probes is nothing to a 2 base protoss with chronoboost and a huge army - just like how when you want to beat a terran, you dont try to kill 10 scvs over his army of 10 marines. i once did a drop on a zerg, used two medivacs full to snipe a spire that just finished, and lost the game - why? because the trade was simply inefficient - i couldn't stop the counter aggression, and even though i did that game, i let myself 20 supply behind to snipe a tech building, which allowed zerg to grab third and gold without any repercussions from me.

basically, when terran goes cloaked banshee, you want it to be literally the reason for winning. unlike DT, banshee is 1 - not easy to transition out of, as dt mechanics are different - when dark shrine completes, you can immediately pop a dark templar - earliest timing of dt rush is about 7 minutes, about the same time as a banshee with cloak 2/3 done (if rushed) - and 2 - with DT as you've seen you can freely expand like MC did (he actually did a dt expand so his dt was delayed like 20 seconds, but he controlled map for 5 minutes straight and took a third before terran), because 2 dts will easily hold off any terran aggression (if split up) as they are extremely powerful and 1 shot half of the terran army earlygame (marines).

its a really disadvantaged solution for the terran, which is why i do not opt for cloaked banshees anymore, especially with all the gas steal.

like what socke did, if you do get cloaked banshee, a smart protoss will jsut say "oh you teched, guess u cant hold my 4/5 gates" and just push you, theres nothing you can do unless you went tanks - at this point, even if u had 4-5 bunkers, because of your investment in tech and economy by expanding, you probably dont have enough infantry to fill more than 3 of those bunkers. if you didnt expand, well, you're probably behind already and ur only option here is bitbybitprime.

i dont want to opt for bitbybitprime everygame, but i know now finally that certain maps call for certain measures. high level players now realize that they have to pretty much begin with a 1 base counter vs all matchups except mirror in regards to terran - close position metalopolis or maps like xel naga with their wide chokes make it almost impossible to efficiently hold off timing aggression from protoss, or even kyrix style baneling aggression.

[mikey]

mb dont even go for cloaked, just go 1-2 regular banshee to keep the protoss on his toes / force him to go robo and maybe keep him in his base longer by keeping a banshee at both the natural and the main. also going techlab starport gives u a raven to stop DT/obs and gives PDD which helps a lot when defending ur bunkers. i've also seen some terran players get the 25 starting mana for medivacs (duno if that helps)

edit: also you can go jinro style and go 3 port mass banshee instead of mass bio play if u see fit - since like everybody says, protoss lack GOOD anti air

[sola]

ya ur right protoss can be well abused with mass banshees if they dont tech to high templars

its one of those builds that i know that can probably take a game in a bo5/7 with semi ease when executed right

getting a raven is the obvious route

but getting those banshees alone makes it really difficult to hold a 5gate right now, which is why im here looking for the solutions

painuser did the very thing u are talking about yesterday, only with cloak - so he killed more probes, but he couldn't hold his base with those banshees either

dts work entirely differently, they are much more devastating / game changing, and it allows guarenteed map control. protoss can pop an observer faster than terran can generally make a raven.

i faced pggbubbles on the ladder yesterday, i 3 raxed him into raven as i knew he was getting dts. this was on delta quadrant, it's not a map i can fast expand on blind vs a protoss, the map is made so the pylon at the natural can hit your base from your rock expo and above the ramps are not very good surface areas which allow for strong gateway aggression. the natural outside the base is wide so i dont even consider fast expanding. as for taking out the rocks.. i dont want to lose to 1 stalker and 1 zealot walking into my base so i cant really focus down rocks efficiently either. he made his first dt, then just expanded after he saw i had turrets up. then when i had a raven i pushed out, he had 3 templars that stormed my army immediately - i think with better micro i might have taken the game there, but it obviously caught me off guard - not to mention the raven got sniped down while my infantry is running, then he just warped in a few dts and i had to back out

at this point the game was lost because he had both tech and economy on me, and though i managed to get out another raven, his army was too big for me to push - i opted to expand twice to match his expansion count after my push, then he just pushed me with a warpgate timing and some high templars.

dts are a very viable opening right now, im looking for the solution that can allow me to scout as well as expand safely without making tanks, without having missile turrets up everygame by 7 minutes, and requires me getting an early tech lab while holding off gateway timing aggression.

[mikey]

i feel like getting cloak for something not permanent (you're just using banshees for harass, not putting them in your army?) is a waste, it's 200/200 for cloak and if you're not looking to all in (i.e. you just want to make time to get your expansion and production up) it's not worth getting, with that 200/200 you can get stim + an attack upgrade possibly.

another route possibly, if they're going 4-6 gate all ins they lack detection? go 2 starport banshee with cloak to hold maybe?

in solution to DT's i see terrans who go FE builds always go early turrets outside there FE with bunkers. just to stop obs/dt's

[Forbs]

Have you tried mixing in a few hellions into your bio against mass gateway?

[Risk]

Clair, i could show you a good build. Basically you go 1 rax techlab, FE. AFter 2 marauders and 1 marine, lift your rax build a reactor with it, go build another rax with the techlab, add a factory, when its done, reactor + starport add a 3rd rax meanwhile, etc etc id have to show it to you

[sola]

mikey : ya but if u dont get cloak ur banshees will do limited damage and will become like a 3:2 exchange (3 stalkers hold off 2 banshees, assuming 2 warps in against the first banshee and then after the 1st is significantly damaged 1 transfers and 1 more warp in for the othr banshee - total of 3)

holding off 3 stalkers in exchange for making 2 banshees along with the time investment into teching that long is not worth it, again a smart protoss will see a banshee and just go "oh i can probalby just charge up his ramp because if he teched that much there's no way he has anything more than marines and maybe a few marauders).

i just played 4 games with a new friend who is a rank 4 master terran, he knew it was coming for 3 games after the first cuz i told him and we decided to practice

i could upload replays but i dont think anyone is that significantly interested, but anyways

he held it at the last game after opening with 2 rax before CC, into ghost - ghosts didn't even have emps, and he held it because i didnt micro and was 100% prepared for it (flanked my army, scvs on bunkers when i got there).

once again mikey the issue is its hard to scout what's happening - the early 2 marauder 1 marine can pick up the unit count and generally give u an idea of what's up - but if i cant make an early marine and marauder because i feel the 3 gate or 5gate coming, then i can't scout - scans will not hit on big maps where protoss can split up tech (if they dont decide to hide it which they seldom do).

@ forbs - no but i have issues against that because 1. if its not blue flame, it's not very efficient because the dps output of a marauder or marine is better, and when you are getting pushed its likely that the splash won't effect the outcome so much

2. if u teched to a fast factory u will probably die to the 3gate pressure unless u have 3 bunkers up ur ramp - 5 if u decided to land ur cc because u realized ur getting behind while protoss is containing you

and 3. im specifically looking for a bio option to this

@ risk - ill call that the SeleCT medivac build, since select does it most often, select dies to 3gate sometimes - and he's been getting tanks as well because he knows the medivac rush is not viable vs a strong timing push. i feel the same way, and on xel naga if u do that build risk vs a protoss who knows how to 5gate

well we can test it out anytime when ur on bnet :3

e/ a lot of theorycraft here, if there are any high master terran players other than risk that would like to try holding this build with a 1 rax techlab expansion, im available most of the day ._.

[Orrin"I make girls wet"Xu]

Dunnowhy Mikey replied to this this didn't say high silver.

Anyways just mass marines 8)

[mikey]

Dunnowhy Mikey replied to this this didn't say high silver.

Anyways just mass marines 8)

? you'll never even see diamond, let alone masters kiddo ~