How do teams handle practicing new strats?

[Leoj]

This is meant to be one of those constructive type of posts. Pre-emptive warning: Probably some rambling in this post as it's basically going to written as a stream of consciousness. This post was somewhat inspired by Fluffnstuff's post in another topic about Artstyle's crazy strategies.

As someone generally new to captaining and working out picks for a team I'm wondering how other teams/captains have worked this out in the past. I know that the golden rule is to give players heroes they are comfortable with, but in order to expand comfort zones you have to try new things on occasion. Obviously during matches we typically see safer strategies with players using heroes they are most comfortable with, but my own personal philosophy is that scrims aren't matches so:

1) I shouldn't be afraid to try new things.
2) I shouldn't be super upset when we lose, unless we play like total shitlords.

In my mind there's two main things that should be practiced in scrims: actual gameplay (such as better communication, more offensive/defensive warding depending on situation, rune checking, etc.) and hero/strategy selection. Actual gameplay is the easier of the two to practice imo, as you can do it alone for most skills (I can go into an IH and play support then force myself to a rune every 2 minutes) but the picks not so much. I mean in SC2 if I want to practice a build versus another certain build, I can tell a practice partner to just go that build over and over. In DotA 2, particular below the pro levels, it's hard to find consistent opponents much less teams of equal skill level, nevermind the fact that you can't ask your opponent to do certain things. That's a long way of saying I can't just go up to a team and say "hey I want you to pick CM/Tinker/ES and let us run a Juggernaut tri against it 5 times to see what happens." So in both cases maybe I notice something exploitable about a popular build/timing (in SC2) or lineup (DotA 2) but in one game I can practice it to see if it is actually exploitable, and in the other there are just too many moving parts to get a real feel for it.

So my basic question is how do other teams handle this? Say for instance I discover that one of my friends plays a killer Bane and that he wants to give it a go in scrims and possibly matches. How do you go from the "ok I want to try this hero" step through practicing it, figuring out its strengths/weaknesses, and then putting him into a match situation and feeling confident with it. I'm sure we can all write down a list of Bane's weaknesses, but how do you get past that and objectively look at him in a game setting interacting with 9 other heroes, when those heroes are bound to change on a scrim-by-scrim basis? Maybe you leave someone like QoP or Invoker on the board since they are popular picks and you want to see how it fares vs those, and maybe that's an easier way of testing, but again you run into the problem where in SC2 you can tell your friend "do a 2-base 6-gate all-in" whereas I can't go into a scrim saying "hey ya i want you to pick ES and VS and roam our mid when he's level X."

Maybe in tri-lanes it is a bit easier. If I want to run something unorthodox, say Gyrocopter, Ogre Magi, and Viper, I can probably pick those heroes 10 games out of 10, put them in the same lane, and kind of get a feel for what's working and what's not. But the solo lanes are more of a crap shoot even then, as maybe one team picks more gank oriented solos one game, or their mid gets a bunch of awesome ganking runes another game, etc. etc. How do you both analyze the lane in 1) the vacuum where you realize their skills might be synergistic 2) in a lane-vs-lane setting where I'm only worried about, say, bottom lane and 3) in the broader context of the game, even if the lane in question didn't lose you the game? I mean it would be easy to lose like 2-53 while not taking one of their towers and saying "welp that tri-lane was a gigantic piece of ass let's never play it again" but harder to analyze and go "well maybe it was a bad matchup, or we played poorly, or ________" and then practice it to the point where Tobi shits himself one day seeing that tri-lane beat a top-tier team.

I'm sure this is more than anyone wants to read so here's a tl;dr. What's the process other teams use to pretty much go from thinking about using a new hero to actually utilizing him in a match setting, and how do you balance practicing those new strategies with older ones you feel more comfortable with.

PS - If any team without me on their roster wins a major tournament using a Gyro/OM/Viper tri-lane I reserve the right to claim half of your cash prize.

[TheWarbler]

I think their is a lot of theory crafting that goes behind it. The best way to practice it in Dota is Trial and Error, seeing where the hero works and what not. You have to look at the heroes synergy and what else your picking.

[JokeZ]

You can certain lanes and learn their strengths and weaknesses, you then try to pick a lineup and setup lanes in such a way that you win 2/3 or 2/4(win 2 lanes, lose jungle/other lane OR win 1 lane/lose 2 lanes/win jungle) OR give yourself an economic/exp advantage with heros like enigma and lich.

[gLiMMeR.]

As speaking for captain of my team... Generally what I do is listen to every pro player's stream when they are scrimming. Well.. Everyone I consider to be decent that is..

I mean there aren't many teams that stream scrims anymore due to International 2 coming up - but syndereN is a prime example. A couple months back, he used to do this thing for his viewers that when he drafted weird shit, he would explain why and give details on why he thinks it would work and what not. It was a neat way to see how other captains draft.

Just watching wild card teams play is also interesting (neXt.kz, zNation, Infs sometimes) is also interesting. They are more noticed for their unique picks (from time to time) rather than their skill.

I always tell people that being in the captain seat is a lot different than being a player.. when it comes to the competitive scene that is. Obviously in leagues and shit everyone is a bit more relaxed and don't really care about picks/play. But you know that when it comes down to it, tournaments are much more serious because there are stakes to play for. When it comes to picks, you have to vocalize what you feel like doing, and only throw in one standout pick from your normal draft. Make sure your team knows about it though or else they will bitch at you and be like "omg crazy draft fuck this captain" and rage quit the team. Being a captain means you gotta take chances/risks for your team and go all-in.. so why not? ^_^

Also just try shit out in pubs. Get your team to 5 lock and get higher MMR, and play against other 5-stacks. There are alot of them out there, and you can try all kinds of new shit in AP. AND keep in mind that team matchmaking is coming out soon, so that will be another good place to just attempt shit.. (while hopefully receiving battle points and items!!!)

[bdiz]

tell ur team to stop bein a bunch of pussies and to have faith in el capitano

[GranDGranT]

Be like puppey.. dont discuss with your team and do it all yourself

[5-s]

They don't practice new shit. You've seen what happens when teams pick some new hero they haven't practiced (See: recent lycan pickers) and can't do basic shit that high level pubs can do.

[MURS]

banes a dope hero

[ixmike88]

generally if u just go and say "i wanna pick this hero" then you have to build a lineup around it which is basically just a whole bunch of theorycraft until u get in game

when ur trying to create a strategy it should have some basic goals like: what r u trying to accomplish (r u trying to counterpick common strats, r u tryin to take every tower at 10 mins, is ur strat designed to counter a specific hero, etc), and how to go about it early/mid game (synergetic heroes via theorycraft, backup picks that can still perform the needed role, hero priorities in draft, bans that will impede ur strategy as opposed to careless/standard bans, optimal lanes, core items, timing pushes/points of aggression, etc)

as for the inconsistency from game to game it's just a matter of being familiar with ur strategy and having enough experience to dictate if the game was a result of specific mistakes (i.e pick offs that lead to a loss of tower/roshan, and other mistakes that put you at a disadvantage but have nothing to do with ur picks/strategy) or just 'outpick' (though its usually a combination of both), it's not very easy to do and it'll probably always be something that haunts u, even on my team's argument over losses are often something like: "we cant do anything with these heroes" "no, we lost because of x y and z mistakes" and it goes back and forth and there's usually some middleground etc

also confirmed, bane is in fact a dope ass hero

[Saint7]

dont be a pussy

[Leoj]

Are there times where you guys go into practice and say "ok we're running this tri-lane four times tonight shut up and deal with it pussies" or do you do it in limited quantities?

[GenocideRun]

leoj takin this team seriously, im impressed. time to step game up

[GranDGranT]

Are there times where you guys go into practice and say "ok we're running this tri-lane four times tonight shut up and deal with it pussies" or do you do it in limited quantities?

I unno why you'd call your team pussies

[Leoj]

I unno why you'd call your team pussies

Clearly you've never met GenocideRun.

[ShadowFiend]

Be like puppey.. dont discuss with your team and do it all yourself

[GenocideRun]

Clearly you've never met GenocideRun.

? Bro if anything Im more manly then you, I dive towers all day while you and 272 yell at me.

[flopagis]

0 reason to be scared of trying new stuff in scrims. Your mechanical and personal skills can be fine tuned in public games and should be a personal thing to get better at. Team synergy, communication, and strategies is what you get from scrims. No reason to not try new stuff unless you are really low tier.

[FuzzyBear]

We need to start doing Tri vs Tri and then let me solo safelane as DP I wont feed like Milkshake there are alot of things that I can run sidelane that kind of out of the ordinary that i can pull off its just a matter of who i am going vs in the trilane if they have heros that have short range on their spells if i can still manage to get exp ect.. but please dont listen to anything 272 has to say i really dont want to run a Razor as 4

[Fluffnstuff]

I initially started to create a response post but I realized the length that it was reaching about 2 hours in. So I just turned it into a blog: http://www.complexitygaming.com/forums/entry.php?b=2033

Hope it helps, just some thoughts.

[changeofpace]

do u see this fucking axe